Schilling and Mussina - HOF-worthy?
Curt Schilling officially announced his retirement. I don’t believe Mike Mussina is officially retired, yet - but he’s on no ML roster and in no ML camp, so unless he makes a mid-season comeback (which I submit is unlikely), he’s done also. Now since Schilling didn’t play last year (whereas Mussina did, winning 20, if you’ll recall), I believe Schilling will be eligible a year earlier. Whenver each is officially eligible, is either (or both) of them HOF-worthy?
The stats that voters may (or may not) look at (and this assumes Mussina doesn’t add to these numbers, as appears to be a reasonable assumption at this time):
Regular season…
Wins: S - 216, M - 270
Win%: S - .597, M - .638
CG: S - 83, M - 57
SHO: S - 20, M - 23
Years: S - 20, M - 18
G/GS: S - 569/436, M - 537/536
IP: S - 3261.0, M - 3562.2
K: S - 3116, M - 2813
BB: S - 711, M - 785
ERA: S - 3.46, M - 3.68
ERA+: S - 127, M - 123
WHIP: S - 1.137, M - 1.192
ASG: S - 6, M - 5
CYA: S - 0 (3 2nds, and a 4th), M - 0 (1 2nd, and 7 other finishes between 4th & 6th)
Postseason…
Wins: S - 11, M - 7
Win%: S - .846, M - .467
CG: S - 4, M - 0
G/GS: S - 19/19, M - 23/21
IP: S - 133.1, M - 139.2
K: S - 120, M - 145
BB: S - 25, M - 33
ERA: S - 2.23, M - 3.42
WHIP: S - 0.968, M - 1.102
WS rings: S - 3, M - 0
Bloody socks: S - 1, M - 0
I add that last “stat” in actual seriousness, in this regard: “Should” that enter into the voting? No. Will it? Yes, at least for some voters, I suspect it will. Indeed, I’d argue that Schilling has no shot without consideration of his postseason resume… and the bloody sock was a defining moment of that postseason resume.
Jim Kaat has 283 wins and a lifetime ERA of 3.45. Now, his lifetime ERA+ is 107, but how many voters look past the raw numbers of wins and ERA? He did it in 25 years, earned 3 ASG, and only finish in the CYA voting was 4th. Bert Blyleven actually should be in the HoF - but it seems like voters look at his 287 wins and lifetime ERA of 3.31 (118 ERA+) , in 22 years, and don’t go any further… so they just put him with Jim Kaat in the “nice career, but not HoF-worthy” category.
If voters vote for Mussina and not Blyleven, I’d love to see the explanation. If voters vote for Schilling, and not Mussina (or Blyleven), then the explanation would have to be the postseason success… but is that really enough to make up the obvious gap? Should it be?
Schilling’s not Pedro or Koufax… so the low (regular season) win total will clearly work against him (and should). If Schilling does somehow get in, I’d have to wonder how much the “bloody sock” and “coming to Boston to break a curse” factored in… though there’d clearly be no way of knowing for sure.
To me, I’m not sure either is worthy - though Mussina appears more deserving than Schilling, if I have to rank them myself. Both should be very proud of their careers, but I admit I’ll be surprised if both end up in Cooperstown.
Bottom line, it’ll be very interesting to see what happens with the HoF voting for Schilling and Mussina.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
They both should get in, though for the different reasons you mentioned - Mussina had the regular season numbers, Schilling more so for his post-seaon success.
This is a bit of a tangent, but - Byleven not being in the HOF is truly a mockery of a sham. Seriously.
March 23rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm
So… 270 regular-season wins is now the barrier for entry? And… 11 postseason wins is another barrier for entry? How low… how low… how low does it go?
As noted, I think both belong in the Hall of Very Good - no higher. No shame in that, btw.
March 24th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Jakes reply:
Bloody sock stat should actually be 2-0, as you’ll recall that Schilling’s sock was bloodied for his next start in the WS as well (either that or his red marker was still available).
Overall, I’d say that Schilling’s PS record should get a little more credit than you seem to be giving him. I think there’s an intangible factor that involves being able to fill in the phrase “Best ____ of his era.” Schilling was the best postseason pitcher of his era. Not saying that makes him a lock for the HOF, but it should push him past the Moose.
And as much as I can’t stand the Moose, how does he not have a job this year after putting up 20 last year? Is he playing hardball on contract terms?
March 24th, 2009 at 9:28 am
True… he had the bloody sock in the WS as well - but the drama of “The Bloody Sock” was ALCS Game 6, with the Sox down 3-2 going back to NY, and Schilling have pitched poorly (due to the injury) in Game 2, and thus having the uncertainty of his appearance (nevermind his dominance) in Game 6. Technically, it should be 2-0… but in terms of how most (including myself, admittedly) look at it, there was only one Bloody Sock (in bold) game.
I love Schilling… duh. In that now-famous Ford commercial in the winter of 2003-04, after he was traded but before the season even started, he was asked by the driver, “Where ya goin’?” He answered, “To break an 86-year curse.” And… he did. He talked the talk, then walked the walk… for my favorite baseball team. Yeah… I always love him for that.
However, even including postseason success, his career was just not as good as Mussina’s… on whole. Would I rather have Schilling for the fabled “one game”? Um… yeah, I would - but Mussina still put together a better career. More wins (by a lot), more top-6 CYA finishes (by a lot)… just for starters.
As mentioned, I don’t actually think either belongs - especially as long as guys like Blyleven and Tiant aren’t in. No knock against Schilling or Mussina btw… to be in the company of Blyleven and Tiant, barely on the outside, looking in.
As for this coming season, Mussina has always seem inclined to do his own thing… in the sense that he’ll do what he’s comfortable with, despite what convention may dictate. In that vein, I don’t think it’s a Pedro thing… where he’ll only come back if certain amount of money is on the table. Rather, I think he’s decided that he’s had enough… he’s had a good career… and (perhaps the icing on the cake) going out after a 20-win season is the veritable “leaving on a high note”. I could be wrong, but that’s the sense I get with him. And I tip my cap to him for that. I’ve always respected an athlete (Barry Sanders also comes to mind) who leaves on his own terms, health intact, because he decides it’s just time.
March 24th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
BTW - I think that Schilling’s 5 year “clock” starts this year, b/c he was on the DL last year and in theory was attempting to play (by rehabbing, etc). So, unless Mussina changes his mind, they will be both be eligble the same year - we’ll get a lot of insight about how the voters think
March 24th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I agree with Cliffy that both belong in the Hall of the Very Good, but not Cooperstown. I think Schilling has a better claim than Mussina, and think his post-season record and bloody sock are legitimate factors that should be accorded some weight, but in the end, I think he falls a bit short.
March 25th, 2009 at 7:58 am
I appear to be in the minority on Schilling vs. Mussina… interesting. Given that, I’ll be even more curious to see how the voters feel about these two - especially if, as Gonzo suggests, they do indeed become eligible in the same year. I thought it went by the last season in which a guy played MLB, but I could be mistaken. For example, didn’t Rickey Henderson play in some independent league (when he could no longer find MLB work), and that time didn’t count “against him”? Or maybe that’s different than DL/rehab time?